tv FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace FOX News June 9, 2013 6:00pm-7:01pm PDT
>> welcome to the special studio audience edition of "hannity". tonight we are joined by a group of great americans most of whom have been unfairly targeted by the irs because of their association with various cons serve tive organizations. you are going to hear their stories and attorneys representing their groups. one of the most fascinating things to watch over the past few weeks has been the ever changing time line of who knew what, when and where about the irs scandal. at first nobody seemed to know anything about it. but as the days go by that seems to be evolving quite a bit. watch this. >> can you give us assurances the ir is are not targeting particular groups based on political leanings? >> i can give you assurances.
there is no targeting. >> they added the names tea party and patriot to the list of cases that should be centralized in this group. >> i first learned about it from the same news reports that i think most people learned about this. i think it was friday. >> i reviewed the watchdog report the misconduct uncovered is unexcusable. >> i don't know the details. >> i was unaware. >> i don't remember. >> it's not my area. i don't know. >> i personally don't remember. >> i will not answer questions and testify about this committee's meeting. >> we didn't until the report was published for the president to be able to review it and respond. >> kathy rumler was notified on april 24th. >> who else decides who was told
about this? >> some other members of senior staff. i don't have a list of it. >> you were asked about white house officials being aware. you just mentioned the council's office. you never mentioned chief of staff. >> i am getting this information to you now. >> only the president was told. >> the council made this decision that this is not the kind of thing that you notify the president of an investigation that is not complete. >> the president doesn't know about everything that is going on in every agency of government. should mr. banger have known in cincinnati where the irs office is. i don't think you can hold him accountable. >> i can't account for every conversation that is outside of the white house. i can't tell you how many people knew. >> while we have been told time and time again the witch hunts ended there are people in this
studio audience that will say they have been targeted as recently as two weeks ago. some of the americans sitting in our studio tonight the american center of law enforcement welcome both of you to the show. >> thank you for having us. >> let me start with the time line here. lois lern lois lerner, correct me if i'm wrong, first knew about this on june 11th. >> that's kofshth. that's when she was notified of the targeting taking place. >> after consulting the treasury, consulting with the white house we didn't hear about it from her and set up questions until may 10th of 2013. >> right. also she came up with another criteria used for. some of the groups in the audience with you today got put in this dragnet because of lois
lerner coming out to other organizations not just tea party groups. she basically is responsible for doing that. >> in march of 2013 doug shuman the head of the irs assured the american people in congress that this was not happening, correct? >> in fact he did that a year ago in response to questions from congress. >> may 2012. >> march 2012. >> 2012, uh-huh. that's right. >> one of the things i want to ask both of you the same question. it is puzzling to me is shulman went to the white house 157 times. his answer was i was there once for an easter egg hunt or whatever it is. nobody as i check the records to be cabinet members of obama they have not been there 157 times. what do you think? >> i think well number one it is
inexplicable. i don't know how you explain 159 visits they can't talk that much about tax policy. you have asked the right questions from the beginning of this sean. it is who knew what and when. i don't think it is the discovery that we are going to get an answer to that. >> what is it specifically that matters in my mind this is about intimidating people because of predom of association and freedom of speech. what are the areas at stake in your mind? >> the most important thing for all of us to remember is we talk about america being a nation of laws not of men. what the irs has done here is essentially abandoned and advocated the rule of law where there's a certain set procedure for them to apply for a tax
exempt status. they have an examination with 70 questions before 2010 they would ask questions about the application itself. and when you have a group of people and an agency who are allowed to just start making it up as we go along, they abandon any legal, objective legal standard, it all becomes subjective and that's what we have here and the explanation that the irs is coming out with is prep posterous. i have people who still don't have tax exempt status after four years. that's the rule of law. >> we had this situation where the irs was saying it's all cincinnati. what's bizarre about that is i have letters on cases two offices in california and one out of washington, d.c. signed
a tax law specialist. this rouge agent low level narrative is absolutely incorrect. let me say something which she just said they are acting as if the inspector general eluded to this. those in the determination unit had no concept of what the law is and how it is applied. none of these groups have been denied. some granted them and what put them in terminal limbo here. we had 6-9 months where there was no response from the irs washington was dictating the terms of this. the office of tax exempt when i was in treasury a long time ago office of chief council for the irs that is not a small division. >> i went through the time line they knew in june of 2011 though
had finished in may of 2012 they finished their own internal investigation. the ig report we were supposed to get an interim report. do you connect this in any way to the election preventing these groups and raise money and be active politically in terms of getting out information about issues they care about. you think it is connected in any way? >> i absolutely do. jay and i first started working together on this in february of last year when all of the groups, hundreds of groups received these expansive questions which -- they were frightening them making them think they might be doing something wrong if they invited them in. it was completely legitimate or
501 c organization. they have the effect of intimidating them. the tax exempt status in additional letters a month before the election with even more questions. >> thank you both. >> there are people in in the audience most of whom average americans who claim they were unfairly targeted by the irs. first in the studio i will be joined by reverend franklin graham who says he is harassed by the irs for political purposes. that continues as specs edition of "hannity" moves on. >> fox news alert i am harris falkner. the department of justice confirming it is officially investigating the unauthorized disclosure of classified information that on the heels of a man coming forward claiming he was the source of the "washington post" and guardian
newspapers. stories on government snooping. 29-year-old edward snowden was part of the national security agency program which picked through american cell phone records for information. he is in hong kong which has extradition treaty with the u.s. experts say he could be returned for prosecution. large explosions we are learning are being heard at nato command headquarters at kabul international airport. the press reporting this in afghanistan. fox news is working to confirm it. again they say large explosions are being heard on the military side of the airport that is the site of nato headquarters there. we will bring you information as we get it. now back to "hannity". begins with arthritis pain... and a choice. take up to 6 tylenol in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. all aboard. ♪
>> it was unfair. it was unfair incredibly inconvenient but it was a mistake. our job is to make sure it never happens again. i haven't heard a single word about what questions you think we ought to beable to ask you about your tax exempt request. anything else but the circus the staffing and over site committee are here is simply political theater. it is diverting attention from what we ought to be doing on this committee is rewriting the
law. >> i am going to deviate from my original question. (applause) >> mr. chairman, you are to blame against the message here to suggest that the citizens are to blame for applying. i don't know how any one can make that conclusion but you. >> my next guest has been a friend of the president for years reverend franklin graham. he claims there's a letter to president obama saying how deep the damage went. unfortunately while the audits paid tax payer.
they have precious resources servicing the irs agents and their offices. i am bringing this to your attention. this is involved in ethical some callers in america explaining more the reverend franklin graham is back we welcome him from the studio audience. good to see you. this is a pretty hard hitting letter as you -- we just -- what made you write this letter what happened to the two-minute stories you were involved in? >> on september the 6th of last year both sam tear tansamaritan purse and billy graham received a letter they were going to be audited. the irs has a right to audit. that's not an issue. they came and audited samaritan's purse and went to billy graham evangelists. we are two separate corporations. two different board of directors, two different cities, different 990s.
for us to both be notified by a letter dated the same day is a little suspicious. we -- that is more than suspicious. >> your father i can't see audited. we are going to audit the reverend billy graham? >> there were two issues, sean. one was the billy graham evangelistic association is also a minnesota corporation. we closed our offices in minneapolis and moved them to charlotte, north carolina. we decided two years ago to file for a new organization incorporating in the state of north carolina for tax exempt status. we applied last year it took 14 months for that application to be approved. normally 4-6 months. it was delayed for 14 months until after the election.
samaritan's purse and billy graham association -- i want to say something about the irs agents. nice guys. i don't have an issue with the agents. they were professionals. >> they find anything wrong? >> no. for our 990 the issue was a no change letter. they accepted it as filed with no changes. we appreciate that. we are audited every year we have internal auditors that go through our policies. we make our audited statement public and anybody can have that if they want it. having the irs come in was not a concern. are we targeted because of our religious beliefs? in north carolina there was an amendment put forth by our state to change the constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman. the president came out against
amendment one, my father came out supporting it. we took out some ads supporting this. someone says you get involved in politics. no we get involved in a moral issue. we are going to speak out on moral issues. this is an attempt to intimidate us. >> i am not trying to get personal. how much did this cost your ministry? >> weeks of -- oh, yes, preparing them. the documentation they want to see it took a fairly large staff weeks to pro pair the documentation. be ready for them when they came in. >> thei was able to kid with yo earlier about auditing you and your dad. i have donated to samaritan's
purse. i have been on the road with you. i know the good that you do. same with your father. when i heard this and when i heard it was the same day in light of everything when you hear the groups with tea party and patriot what do you think? >> it makes you wonder was it much broader than tea party in political groups? was it taken in conservative groups like the billy graham association. we have the same position on same-sex marriage. these are moral issues. i believe jesus christ is the way the truth and the life. i believe that he came and died for our sins. he was buried for our sins and rose from the grave. he will for give our sins if we give our faith in christ. it is obvious there are people that do not agree with these
moral principles samaritan's purse believe in. are we going to be targeted? because of what we believe? that's why i wrote a letter. i do believe the president probably knew anything about this. i wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. i like the president. i disagree on many policies. i wanted to let him know what we expect. >> you didn't put in render unto ceaser and, which means that cease ar gets nothing. i am just kidding. reverend thank you for sharing your story. it's an important issue. i know your dad is doing well and we wish him our very best as well. >> sad when we are targeting the reverend billy graham. very sad. we are going to hear from our studio audience most of them say
they were targeted by the irs because of their political beliefs. they are here to share their outrageous stories next as "hannity" continues. ♪ if you have high cholesterol, here's some information that may be worth looking into. in a clinical trial versus lipitor, crestor got more high-risk patients' bad cholesterol to a goal of under 100. getting to goal is important, especially if you have high cholesterol plus any of these risk factors because you could be at increased risk for plaque buildup in your arteries over time. and that's why when diet and exercise alone aren't enough to lower cholesterol i prescribe crestor. [ female announr ] crestor is not right for everyone. like people with liver disease or women who are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. tell your doctor about other medicines you're taking. call your doctor right away if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired, have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine or yellowing of skin or eyes. these could be signs of rare but serious side effects.
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>> i h >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules and regulations and i have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee. and while i would very much like to answer the committee's questions today, i have been advised by my council to assert my constitutional rights not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this these hearings. >> that was lois lerner who is now on administrative leaf
invoking the 5th amendment on the hearing scandal last week. what do they think about their refusal to answer questions about the targeting of conservatives and conservative groups. the people say they were unfairly targeted by the irs. give yourselves a big hand. good to see you all. just a show of hands. how many of you think that lois lerner was invoking the 5th to hide something? any one disagree? nobody. all right. i am going to go through real quick. name the organization. >> through the vote. >> tea party tea tree. >> west jerry tea party. >> patriots. >> tea party express. >> citizen's for self governance. >> national organization for marriage. >> one of those conservative groups. okay. >> texas public policy foundation. >> dallas tea party. >> fox radio.
>> todd starnes is here. >> tea party network and tea party dot ne -- tea party.net. >> all of the names we are not supposed to have in our groups and you get targeted. were all of you unfairly targeted by the irs you believe? show of hands. >> i think my complaint was more the bureaucracy and i have had this before. i have a story to tell. >> okay we will get to you. >> katherine i am going to start with you. it wasn't only the irs for you. it was oshrb awe. >> we filed our application in july of 2010. up in that time i had never had any government agency be involved with anything that i had to do except filing your normal tax returns. after filing that application until as recently as a month ago we had 18 different points of
contact from the fbi from the department of labor's oshea. department of justice. >> did they find anything wrong? >> it has been going on almost 3 years. >> 3 years. >> only i government agencies and not a one-found anything wrong. >> no. >> wow. >> that's pretty amazing. >> kevin your story. >> lynch pins of liberty. we are a 501 c 3 we are different than many of the applicants. i run an educational institution. our motto is challenge the generation of thes rising generation. we teach high school and college students. one of the most egregious we face is minors they asked us to identify the stew kent perp teaching. duri
during this whole process we get a third letter which says we need to know the location of where you are conducting the teaching. >> bette martin known you for a while. >> we filed 501 c 3 and 4 in september 2010. we are nothing from the irs even though we made inquiries no response back until early in 2012. >> so two years later. >> a year and a half later. >> we got questions like -- >> what were some of the more outrageous questions you got? >> they wanted to know every congressman and senator that many spoke to and all of the communications with them including copies of written communications. >> isn't that none of they're blank business? seriously, right? any one think that's their business? does that have to do with your tax status? >> if you can't communicate with your own elected -- the person who is supposed to represent you
without being targeted by the irs there's a problem. >> a lot of constitutional issues freedom of speech association and person going after the ap and freedom of the press. >> they should make no law establishment of religion. >> reverend graham. >> pro had be-- prohibiting the exercise there of, the ap, fox news. the right of the people to peacebly assemble. the government for regress of grievances. >> all of your stories we are trying to put this together for all of you at home. when we come back we will have more with the studio audience as we investigate the irs's unprecedented efforts to target the conservatives and intim g e gate -- intimidate them. did it help the president win back the election.
>> you sure you didn't talk to any one at the white house about this issue? >> about singling out conservative groups for special scrutiny? >> that's what we are talking about isn't it? >> 118 visits it didn't show up after 132 members talked to you about it you sure shoo you didn't bring it up to anybody in the white house? >> not to my memory. >> that was former irs commission tier drug shulm -- doug shulman. is that the truth do average americans believe him? let's bring back the studio audience. do you believe him? nobody believes him.
it is 157 times we learned anybody think he was there for coffee, tea and crumb pets. >> easter eggs. >> west jersey tea party i am the founder. in august of 2010 we filed for 501 c 3 status. like many of the people in the audience we had the same inclusive questions being asked of us. such as the communications between our members and members of congress, our representatives of the state house as well as the qualifications of the people we brought in whether or not they could speak on the topics we had chosen for them to speak on. it was an incretrusive devil topment. we saw the membership losses occur right after we put the vote to all of our members.
do you want to cooperate with the irs? they said no our membership began to show off after that. >> they thought they were going to be audited? >> they thought with their association with us as a tea party was going to cause audits for them. >> in 2009 we opened up a bank account. we were getting checks and donations and created the in number. through 2010 i started getting letters from the irs and got scared and contacted an attorney who walked us through the process and got us established as an e 4. in our case we got it established before this started. the problem is every three months we got the letters saying i am not in compliance. i have to use up a day on the phone with the irs. you never get an e-mail never get the same person. it is a 1-800-number.
you send it to a po box and you never know what happens. is it worth it as a mom and pop organization to go through this nightmare. my last letter was may 5th. >> how many of you believe the timing of this is such that they wanted to put you back on your hee heels, distract you with letters? >> you think this was connected to the election? >> citizens united is the key thing. you know what happened 48-hours before scott brown won in massachusetts. a few weeks later all of this started. >> interesting. >> amy cramer we first met in april 20th oh 0 -- 2009. 21,000 people came out to an event. it was a pretty big event.
>> april 16th. this is symptomatic of a bigger problem. you cannot continue to treat the symptoms and get rid of the disease. you have to eradicate the disease. this is exactly what the tea party movement is all about big government. when you look at the irs there are so many layers it's like peeling back an onion. can't get to the bottom of it. it has something to do with the election. nobody can answer who is running the white house? where are the adults? these people work for us. every single american should be concerned about this. it's not just tea party or conservatives next time the shoe could be on the other foot we could have a republican president. you have bureaucracy to target somebody that it is his or her agenda. every single american needs to look at this. that's why you are seeing this where they won a special prosecutor or investigation.
>> 76 percent. that's a big number. >> 2-1 democrats over 60 percent of democrats. >> jenny? >> we applied for 501 c 4 in july of -- i mean in march of 2010. we got our first letter back from them requesting 34 additional pieces of information which i gave the ones -- >> did they ask for prayers you gave? >> they asked what books we read. the first one wasn't as intrusive as a second one. i filled that out sent them a box then the second letter didn't come. i sent them that box in july of 2010. i did not hear from them until january 2012 never got e-mails nothing from them. finally i got a letter asking them for 97 additional pieces of information. they wanted the handouts of everything we had in any meeting or event. one happened to be a teddy bear
i sent one and put the exhibit number on there and also passed out constitutions. i sent a box this big as well as $200 to send it. i didn't send them any names of the donors. >> it didn't apply to a c 4 but i still didn't hear from them four months later so i contacted the congressman who was one of the true blue guys. >> from california. >> yes believe it or not. he sen a scathing letter to the irs he had an i am packed speech to the irs 3 weeks later i got a phone call from them and they gave us our letter. >> nobody should have to go through that. >> so many people have said you know what i can't donate any more i can't come to your meetings any more i am afraid the irs is going to come after me. that is teern knee. >> i have always told my accountant because i am in the
public eye, just pay it. liberals would like knock more than we handcuffed, perp walk and put into prison with some liberals. >> we have to take a break. we will come back. don't go away. studio audience majority say they were personally targeted by the irs as we continue on "hannity". you hurt my feelings, todd.
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that i grew up in, the america people crossed oceans and risked their lives to become a part of. i am tear fied it is slipping away. >> respond from our studio audience. >> citizens of self governance we come out of the tea party movement. i travel with tea partyers. i have been hearing these stories for years including from begin any my -- guinea my local pea party founder. i went out and found the toughest toattorney i could fin former u.s. attorney we filed a class action lawsuit in ohio at the heart of the matter. we got this prosecutor and we are going after this. we put up a web site sue the irs.com it is being controlled the intelligence agency. we have people all over the country all different kinds of
organizations joining this class action organization. we have the pro israel groups targeted religious groups that have been targeted. if you put in a radical name you might survive. >> there are groups that tested that theory and changed their application name and approved in a short period of time. we have proof that it depends on your name and your name shows your personal philosophy. >> we applied for our 501 c 4 in october of 2010. we did not hear word one for 17 months. in february of the election year i get a letter saying they can't process miamication until i fill out these approximately 90 questions. some of the same questions mentioned but they wanted copies of every speech we had ever given. one was interesting. they wanted to know if any of our members were volunteers or board members were going to run
for office in the near future. or maybe way down the road they wanted to know what office they were going to run for. so was it opposition research? >> really. that's bizarre and frightening. >> my story is slightly different. we had our 51 c-4 and 501 c-3 status. in march of 2012 our political opponents had gotten a hold of a list of our political donors. the document the 990 not supposed to be public. there was an attempt to make it look like it didn't come from the irs. we were unable to unmask it and find it had printing on it that made it clear it was from the irs. we didn't even have this document. this is a felony punishable up to 5 years in prison. one of the articles of impeachment was that they used private tax information to go after people. congress made this a felony. we had been fighting and talking
about this. the treasury inspector general's office asked a number of questions going on for a year. 11 senators mitch mcconnell lauren hatch demanded answers. why was our 990 given to political opponents the head of the human rights campaign is the co-chair of the obama reelection campaign. >> there's a lot of information that has been linked. >> there was clearly an attempt of harassment with passage of prop 8 in california even as franklin said we worked together. we are going to fight this and sue the irs and fight this. this should not -- i don't care if you are on the right or left of the political spectrum. if they could do this to us they could do it to any one. >> i promise we have a whole row
to get through as we continue and thank you for sharing that story. we will come back. coming up we will have more with the studio audience when we return on this special edition of "hannity"." hey kevin...still eating chalk for heartburn? yeah... try new alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heartburn and taste awesome. these are good. told ya! i'm feeling better already. [ male announcer ] new alka seltzer fruits chews. enjoy the relief! she got a parking ticket... ♪ and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card. it doesn't charge late fees or a penalty rate. ever. as in never ever. now about that parking ticket.
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i'm stewart harrington, red lobster line cook, (girl) w(guy) dive shop.y? (girl) diving lessons. (guy) we should totally do that. (girl ) yeah, right. (guy) i wannna catch a falcon! (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs.
(guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring. (guy) we should do that. (guy vo) it did. (man) how's that feel? (guy) fine. (girl) we shouldn't have done that. (guy) no. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. >> welcome back to this special edition of "hannity" as we are joined by our studio audience all believe they have been targeted by the irs. brook from texas. >> texas i am the head of the organization called the texas public policy foundation. we have been around for 25 years. our story is also a little bit different. in the summer of a year ago our donor list was disclosed inadvertently by the irs. >> how do they do this inadvertently? >> they forgot to redakt it when they released it to the public. it is an interesting turn of events. texas is standing up as the
antithesis of what they are doing trying to ruin our liberty. we led against obama care. junior senator ted cruise worked on the u.s. supreme court. we believe we are at the heart of really what is right about this country and we were targeted by the federal government because we are standing up and saying no more. >> governor rick perry made me an honorary. >> zero you are more than welcome to move. >> we had thousands every day. we would love to have that. >> hello, sean. dallas tea party in the heart of texas. we are one of the largest if not the largest. >> everybody. >> i go down to texas they said ya'll come back. i said huh? >> we are nice in texas. southern hospitality for you. >> we are the largest -- one of the largest if not the largest
in the country. these members were targeted individually audited. what the american public needs to understand is they call the tea party organization but they are just people. they are family. when you are living on a fixed income you know at any moment they can seize your bank account scary. >> they can do it without a quarter? >> a lot of people don't notice. >> tea party patriots we filed back in april of 20011. we heard nothing at all from the irs. in february of 2012 we got a letter from the irs from all of the different questionnaires that were outrageous. some of them being as many said about wanting our donors wanting to know who the guests were
wanting to know whatever literature we passed out. the list goes on and on and on. we didn't agree with that. and fortunately for us about the same time this took place they signalled from aclg was starting to pauk about the irs targeting the tea party. we never heard that. brenda rohn the founder of our organization she got a hold of the guy. >> you are part of the lawsuit. >> we are part of the lawsuit that's correct. we still haven't gotten our c 4. >> real simple. this is another opportunity the obama administration has targeted its own people. that is why would don't trust the government. the larger tea party organizations we knew not to disclose the people under 5,000. the small organizations that didn't have the resources of you
are saying don't give over the lists i am afraid they did and i wonder if we compared we would have a higher percentage. >> i wonder how it will all turnout it will be very interesting with e-mails and electronic devices it will be hard to cover up. shawn it is not just the tea party religious groups are coming under fire. these groups are absolutely tear fied. a baptist which ran the ad they have been around since precivil war days. they were audited as a result of running this ad. >> you have been great. i know i speak for everybody else i know you all are fighting for what is right. everybody watching tonight can be intim gatidated the fact thau are standing up for this is helping a lot of other people.
give your severs a big hand. thank you for being with us. that is all of the time we have left. as always thank you for being here. we will be back soon for another edition of "hannity". >> we are at war defense terror. but this war like all wars must end so that america can wage war on apple? apple making massive profits overseas. >> what turns a normal fat little 8-year-old boy a vicious hate crime mal lishist? >> so we can win the war on drugs? >> this is your brain on drugs. >> start one on certain foods? america's war is on food, terror, business, drugs and hate. >> if you want to hurt another human being